The Innerspace Station Podcast

Episode #12: CLEAR Your Stuff with Theresa Lode: Cosmix Innerspace Camp

episode #12

CLEAR Your Stuff with Theresa Lode

Innerspace Camp Sneak Peek: Week 3

clear your stuff

"We are the most medicated group of people ever in history. What's up with that? Our little heads were so overloaded with decision fatigue, and that is a very real thing. How do we settle our minds down?"

Today I’m sharing info around a topic that we’ll explore more deeply in Cosmix Innerspace Camp, my 8 week program running THIS June & July. Today’s episode is a mini version of what we’ll uncover during week 3 of Camp – which is our “CLEAR” week.

You got it…we’re gonna dive DEEP into your closets, your junk drawers, and underneath the bed and take a REAL close look at ALL your STUFF & thangs. I thought it might be more fun to have a friend join me for this conversation. She’s also gonna be a BONUS guest during week 3 of Camp. You can find more info about Innerspace Camp at the end of this Episode & in the show notes!

OK – Theresa Winn Lode AKA “The Zany Sage” is a life coach, author of the book, Bad Ass Organizing – A short guide to uncluttering your home, head and heart and junk thrower outer. She is passionate about helping people clear clutter so they can live life with more clarity and JOY.

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What We're Exploring

on this episode, we're talking about:
  • Clearing physical and emotional clutter.

  • Letting go of stressors and trauma.

  • How creating more space for yourself can change your life.

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Audio Transcript

KammieK:Welcome to the Cosmic Innerspace podcast. I’m Kammie K interspace surfer and cosmic creator at Are you ready to launch a business? Expand your cosmic consciousness, amp your intuition, or simply celebrate the everyday messiness of being human. Then the Cosmic Innerspace podcast is for you. Inside each episode, we’ll demystify the mystical and provide practical magic for everyday alchemy.

We honor an intuitive and spirited lifestyle that elevates and explores life’s multidimensional mysteries. Eavesdrop in on conversations with artists and authors, kick ass creatives, entrepreneurs, and everyday interspace surfers, just like you, who are diving deep and glowing up in a whole new world.

Stay tuned for interspace best practices and sustainable business tools to help you navigate the new now. Let these stories inspire you to cultivate your curiosity, elevate your mindset and explore your own cosmics inner space. Let’s dive into the show. 

Hello friend today, I’m sharing information around this topic that we’ll explore more deeply in cosmics inner space camp. My eight week program running this June and July. Essentially, today’s conversation is a mini version of what we’ll cover during week three of camp, which is our clear week. You got it. We’re going to dive deep into your closets, your junk drawers, and underneath the bed and take a real close look at all your stuff and things.

I thought it might be more fun to have a friend join me for this conversation. She’s also going to be our bonus guests during week three of camp. You can find out more information about inner space camp at the end of this episode and in the show notes. Okay. Teresa Lode , AKA The Zany Sage is a life coach author of the book.

Bad-ass organizing a short guide to uncluttering your home, head and heart and a junk thrower, outer. She is passionate about helping people clear clutter so they can live life with more clarity and joy. She does this both through her writing, speaking, and professional organizing services. Theresa is a Yavapai college alumni where she also received advanced certification in life coaching.

You can find out more about all of her programs and services at Without further ado, please enjoy my soulful and spirited Sunday morning conversation with Theresa Lode. Hello. 

Theresa: Well, good morning, Kammie. 

KammieK: So it’s a Sunday morning and thank you for joining me, Theresa and I have been talking about doing this for many, many months and I’m telling you, man, I think I said it in the, in the email that I sent to you from mid-March to like now has just been a whirlwind it’s you know, sometimes life comes at you in these big waves and like little tsunami kind of hit ya. And there was just a wave of stuff. And I was like, oh, I wanted this to go out this next week because I’m trying to share out information about interspace camp.

And you’re going to be a bonus guest expert with us for inner space camp this summer. And then I looked at the calendar and I was like, oh my God, we’re not scheduled yet. So thank you so much for being available at the last minute to hop on here and have a chat on the fine beautiful Sunday morning.

Theresa: Well, the pleasure is all mine. It’s always delightful to visit with you. 

KammieK: Thank you. 

Theresa: From the time we met there was like this click with us. 

KammieK: Yes. So to give the listeners how we met. So I still am currently working full-time at Yavapai college, which I’ve mentioned many times on the podcast and Teresa and her kids are alumni and current students in and out.

And Theresa also has taught classes and workshops and all kinds of things. I think we met, like in passing in a tent, it was like a, a welcome day tent was set up and someone was like, Teresa, Teresa is an alumni and her kids are alumni and she stopped. And I was like, who are you? And you were like, who are you?

And I felt like we were like, kind of sisters from another lifetime or something. We just instantly felt a connection. 

Theresa: Right. That doesn’t happen real often. And when it does, I pay attention to it. 

KammieK: I know me too. I love it when that happens. So yeah, we chatted and then we went and met, I don’t know for coffee or something.

I can’t remember who came up to campus. I think, 

Theresa: I think we had lunch or coffee or, yeah. And then our paths have crossed here and there 

KammieK: Multiple times…. 

Theresa: Yeah. 

KammieK: And so I was fortunate enough. Theresa does workshops as we’ll get into and trainings and coaching on decluttering, all the things, our spaces, our minds, our hearts, our spirits.

And she did a presentation for our wellness Wednesday group at the college. And I was so knocked out by her content and material. I asked if she wanted to participate in this interspace camp that I’m gonna do this summer because we’re going to have a week on clearing out our stuff and things.

And so it just made sense to bring her on as an additional guest expert. And I thought let’s have a conversation on the podcast and get to know you better and share you with all the peoples, because I’m, I know there’s people out there who need what, what medicine you bring to the party. So, yeah. So tell me a bit about your your background, where you’re from. Cause I know bits and pieces of things, but I’m so excited to get into it and hear your evolution. 

Theresa: Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, I’m going to see if I can talk. I’m a Michigan girl originally, but landed at Montana many years ago and have kind of, you know, I’ve been married for very long time. I’ve got three adult children now, and I have been a nurse.

I’ve been a teacher. I’ve been a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I’ve been a cookie baker, but the thing that I’ve always come back to is organizing. I think it started for me when I read cheaper by the dozen in fifth grade. And that story was a couple of efficiency engineers. They study ways to make things more.

And I remember that just geeking out on how can I make this more efficient. So, you know, I joke sometimes that means it’s a Razor’s edge between efficiency and a nervous breakdown. 

KammieK: It’s a fine line, right? It’s a fine line at times. 

Theresa: But that’s what I’ve always come back to. The organizing and uncluttering.

And I did my coaching training at Yavapai college. I brought in the professional coaching angle to my organizing because I realized what the work that I was doing with clients. It’s like, how do we create sustainable change? And the coaching component really helped me to understand and help my clients understand more what’s behind this acquisition obsession, what’s going on?

Why can’t you keep your, that sounds really harsh for people really struggle. I mean, I see the struggles every day. They’re overwhelmed by their closets. They can’t park in their garage. So I decided to start doing workshops and I started at Yavapai college and before COVID. Doing my unclouded your life workshop.

And then taking a more comprehensive holistic approach to clutter, namely home, head, heart, and the impact on your health. 

KammieK: Okay. Wait, can I, can I jump in and ask before you get too far into that piece of it? Can you tell me because I’m always so fascinated and I love that your story, your background is similar to mine in that you haven’t done just one thing, but I find that when we look back, there’s typically threads that pull through or weave through all of those things.

So can you share with me. Where did that show up in nursing? Where did that show up in cookie baking? Where did that show up in your other careers? But those threads had to have been there. I’m assuming. So what did that look like back then? That continued to like point in this direction that you’re, that you’re in now.

Theresa: Well, first the fifth grade thing, you know, trying to figure out how can I do this book . It’s a great book. And I remember just the, how can I do things more efficiently? And so nursing, that’s such a great question because before you, they unleash you on the hospital, you have to do your, your hands-on work and demonstrate competency before they sick you on patients.

So I had my, the stage to setting, you know, with the bed and we practiced on one another. And the students, we all got a card on the procedures that we needed to do in front of the instructor. They had their little checklist and I will never forget coming and doing what I did. I took care of my patient. I did everything that was required on the card.

And I remember my instructor sitting there with her mouth agape seriously. And she looked at me and she said, I have never seen that done so efficiently before. So now that backfired on me a little bit when I was doing my nursing rotation at the veteran’s hospital, because there you don’t be efficient.

And I remember I got in trouble once I took care of my patients, I had all my stuff taken care of and I was using the opportunity to, I can’t remember do something administrative and I got scolded.

KammieK: And what do you mean? Like it was taking, it was taking too much time. 

Theresa: I was done with all my work and, I was making the other students not look good.

KammieK: Oh, right, right. For that. 

Isn’t that fascinating culture. That’s a whole separate conversation, right? Like how cultures get cancerous, you know, toxic kind of behaviors going, and then you’re shamed for doing it.

Theresa: Right. Yeah. So, so that always popped up, you know, when I’m back in my waitressing days, even, I mean, it’s still bugs me if I’m having a cup of coffee and I’m watching somebody it’s like, your workflow could really be a lot better.

KammieK: I know. I, cause I wait to see it. I think everyone should have to wait tables. It’s like a Rite of passage. I think everyone should do. And it’s like the same thing with the waters. Right? Like you take the waters and you refill everyone’s water in your section. Like the whole section, you refill all the waters at the same time.

You don’t like run back from onesies and twosies and keep running in and out from the back of the house. Right. I mean, it’s still, I see it too when I’m in restaurants. 

Theresa: Yeah. No, well that proofreading menus that’s a whole other time.

KammieK: I know we’re cut from the same cloth 

Theresa: So that was the cookie baking.

Yeah, to me, it’s all about assembly line and efficiency. So I would make I make my cookie mixes ahead of time. So what that looks like Ziploc bags sitting out on the counter, you know, two cups of flour to, to, to do your sugar and just to have it all lined out. So when it was time to bake cookies for the coffee shop, I would just grab a mix and I had him Sharpie marker, you know, add a stick of butter or whatever the ingredients were.

KammieK: Even think of that. Yeah, but I’m not like a huge baker, so that makes sense. But I love it. That that’s just how your mind works and you can drop you in any scenario. And you’re going to look at it through that lens. Like, how do I make this more efficient? How do I make this more productive? How do I put a system or a process in place to make this flow?

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. That’s kind of an obsession with me. I say, I need to be careful because it can get out of control sometimes. 

KammieK: Well, and you and I we know that we’ve done a lot of the deeper work and that a lot of that comes from chaos and childhood or disorganized homes then, or parents were a bit all over the place, so, oh, amen sister.

Yeah. Right. Like we, we take that trauma and then it manifests as something different as, as we go through our own life. 

Theresa: Oh that you are so absolutely true. Cause I grew up in a very chaotic alcoholic home and there was a lot of chaos. So I know that these, that part of me developed as a response, it has served me well.

Yeah, it’s a great skill, but I just need to keep a governor on it. So I don’t end up…

KammieK: because it is a trauma response, like you said, right. 

Theresa: We’ll dial it back to heal that and move from healthy. 

KammieK: Is it to serve you instead of disabled, right? 

Theresa: Or yes, this drive.

KammieK: I have that recovering perfectionist going on, you know, constantly in myself. It’s like, I’m really, really. Playing with progress, not perfection, right? Like this podcast is absolutely 100% evidence of I’m just going to start putting things out there. I mean, I’m using a larger tech headset that you normally use in a phone that plugs into my Microsoft surface.

I’m not on a fancy laptop. I don’t have a fancy microphone. It’s like, this is what I have available to me right now. This is what we’re doing. And, and we’ll go from there, right? Because cause it can disable you. It can just freeze you. We can just get paralyzed and overthink all the little things. So you’ve figured out how to organize all the things in a way that works for you.

Right. And you’re able to help others. Right. You’re able to use that. So that, that turned into your, your magic and your, your medicine and your special that you’re able to share with others. 

Theresa: Yeah. And you know, it’s always funny to me because you when I walk in somewhere and you know, like my clients are usually overwhelmed by the time they call a professional organizer, they’re like near in the headlights and I’m just able to look in and go, okay, well, let’s put it.

And they’re like, oh my God, that’s magic. And I’m like, it’s just how I see it. 

KammieK: Yeah. You got the special filter. Yeah. It’s just, the filter comes down and you see through it and you’re able to see all of that. Yeah. 

Theresa: Kind of crazy kind of fun.

KammieK: It’s awesome. It’s crazy. Awesome. Is what it is. I mean, this is where we get our super powers, right.

Yeah. Right. And so, so then, okay, so you, you did those things. When did you start morphing into this? Is it, was it after you went through your coach training that it really, this is a specialty area that you kind of realized it makes sense. 

Theresa: Yeah, no, I started doing this way back in Montana when my kids were still at home, just, it started out with a lot of volunteer work, a lot of volunteer, helping moms that you maybe had a new baby in their house was in disorder.

Or I gathered a team to help a little old lady next door neighbor moved from 3000 square feet into a little 800 square foot apartment. Wow. So yeah, I pulled a team together cause that was a massive job. So I did a lot of that work and then I just started putting myself out there on Craigslist and the phone began ringing.

So, I just started there and and then after doing the coaching training and coming down here, I realized, you know, when you’re a bowling alone and a business, you really don’t have any scalability unless you want to bring on employees, which is. Not super crazy about that model. So it’s like, how can I scale this one?

Between the coaching training that I received and developing the curriculum that I did to teach it Yavapai college, I’m clouding your life. I feel like that’s a way better use of my time to be able to inspire people. Because one of the first things I tell people is you are the best organizer you will ever work with because you know how you work. My job is to help them raise awareness of how to get to that place.

Yes, they are cluttered in their heads. You know, working with people with add ADHD, have a real hard problem. 

KammieK: Well, and I’m, I’m assuming you’ve come across some hoarding situations and some, some intense, w are you, have you, you know, do you also have resources that you refer people to, you know, counselors or therapists or, you know, other resources that they may need to go to for, does it ever go there? Where, you know, people start sharing or having kind of, intense moments while that cause that’s, that’s an intense process to be going through people’s stuff with them.

Theresa: It is a very personal, I call it spiritual work because I mean, when you’re running around in somebody’s underwear or, I mean, there’s, there’s no secrets. I mean, it’s just, one-on-one right there. Totally. Isn’t. I mean, that’s top of my list is to create a safe space for them to know how do you do that? By deep listening, doing the coaching skills, listening to them, assuring them, asking, what’s your story.

What’s going on with this? And then I just listened. And now sometimes it’s a little bit of a dance because it’s like, okay, let’s listen, but let’s keep moving forward. So that when we leave to the first thing I do, when I walk into a situation is say, let’s take three deep breaths. First of all, if you’re comfortable with that.

And, and I want to hear what your intention is, or if you want to just privately say to yourself, what is your intention? So when we do that, that kind of settles down because usually people are amped up by the time I’m knocking on their door. Absolutely. My favorite trips. And they’re like, I’m like, okay, we’re just going to get centered right now.

And let’s see what the intention is and visualize what we want accomplished. So anyway, I will remind them of what was the vision that we’re going to get this closet cleaned out. But if you are fretting over this piece of lint that you’ve been saving and you’re, you’re grieving it. Right. Cause your great aunt Tilly gave it to you, right.

We’re not going to be able to get much stuff done. 

KammieK: Yes. 

Theresa: So it’s a constant..

KammieK: That’s what I’m saying. So you’re, it sounds like you’re able to. Set the container, which is, there’s not really a better word for it. I hate that word, but like you set the space, you said the container, you let them know they’re safe, but, and we are going to do some work here.

Like we’re not just going to sit in the story and sit in the mucky muck of it, like you called me because we’ve got work to do and we’re going to move forward.

Theresa: Exactly. And it’s funny because some of my clients, I had one. And Dewey. And she was like, yes, boss. Yes, boss. Because she would get caught up with all these stories.

It’s like, okay, Helen, you know, it’s not her name, but yeah. We need to, yes, possum. And she was just adorable. 

KammieK: Well, and that’s a big that’s a courageous act when someone finally reaches out, right. Like they reach out and help. They can’t do it on their own. And so, yes, it sounds like you’re really able to discern and keep things flowing.

I guess that’s why I asked about the other resources because you know, sometimes, sometimes I feel like that could be a catalyst then for people to go, oh, okay. I have deeper work to do here beyond like, that’s the first phase of doing our inner work, right. Is looking at our stuff because then that alleviates space in our mind.

And so we’ll talk more about that when we get into..

Theresa: But to answer that question. Yes, I do. You know, it’s funny. I always say I don’t work with hoarders, but then I end up working with a hoarder. The problems really are beyond the scope of what I can do. So I have referred out to a therapist or to an organizer that does have a background in therapy.

And I’m not afraid to, I had to fire one client. We had gone through her whole house and it got to where I saw that my work was actually facilitating her hoarding. So anyway, that that was hard, but that was part of my growth as a business woman to go. Yeah, you’re easy paying to come here and do this, but I’m not serving you

KammieK: I love that you shared that because I’ve had several people comment that they’ve listened to a couple of other episodes and, and they’re beginning business owners or they’re in the, the initiation phases of creating a business and kind of exploring what that is. And they’ve commented that they love hearing people’s stories like this.

And I think what you just said, there is a good business point of setting boundaries, knowing who your ideal client is and who you are not going to work with and being firm with that. Because like you just said, it can be easy to take that money. Right. I remember when I started coaching and like 2005, I same thing.

I had a fire. So I was like, you’re not moving forward and taking action between our calls. I cannot ethically take your money like this, this isn’t coaching. I don’t know what’s going on here, but the part of the piece is action. Right? And so setting those goals, I don’t want you to…

Theresa: yeah, you don’t want, especially. You know, you and I have the, we care for people and it’s like, no, you’re not going to pay me to be a listening friend. Right. And, and again, that’s fine that it has its place in the coaching dialogue. But I found it and part of it is my passion is so deep to help people just get rid of the collateral, keep rearranging it.

So this another little business point that I’ve learned that I always tell clients, you know, you can’t call me and say, Hey, will you go organize uncle, uncle Jim, for me, tell him, no, I will not practice. Nonconsensual organizing, right. 

KammieK: Concent is on the table. Yeah. 


Theresa: Absolutely. Cause you’re just going to breed resentment. You want me to come in and organize your wife? Woo. No. 

KammieK: Well, and that’s not our job, right? Like, you know, a client is a client, but it’s not our job to just, like you said, unsolicited. Go organize everybody’s closets. 

Theresa: No, you can’t give a gift certificate for somebody to go organize.

If they want to hire me and you want to pay me for them, that’s fine. But this is not like a commodity that you, you go out and buy a new, this is a service. Yes. And when the S when the S what’s that same, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Yes. And, you know, I, as the teacher might show up, but if the student is ready, nobody’s, nobody’s going to win out of that.


KammieK: Right. Yeah. So then tell me how you evolved past Craigslist to developing your program and, and where the journey has taken you since then. And then we’ll get into the goodies of it. 

Theresa: Okay. Well, I’ve been a writer. Forever started freelancing golly, almost 30 years ago, I started freelancing and developed.

Oh, I’ve been a humor columnist and started writing feature articles in the newspaper. So many ways the writing has always been in the background of whatever I’m doing. And again, that desire to see more sustainable results with my clients and then realizing with coaching. Oh my gosh. I so loved the coaching process.

The inquiry-based that says, you know, you know what you need, you are the expert. So to be able to incorporate that with the organizing was a huge game changer for people. If they could understand what’s behind. The clutter what’s really going on. So is a developed and started giving little talks and just little, maybe one-off workshops on, you know, preparing for the holidays or getting your office.

I’ve done a lot of organizing for businesses and doing those one-offs and it’s like, Hm, I really want to make this more scalable. And that’s when I, well, I wrote the book, bad-ass organizing a short guide to uncluttering your home head and heart. Yes. So from that, I just pulled the information for that and proposed a class to Nancy, and said, how about this?

And so far I’ve been through two sessions of it and gotten rave reviews from it. And we just, we take it layer by layer into the clutter. 

KammieK: And that’s so a couple of things, one back to you saying that the writing. Allowed you to, you know, put more of the information out there, communicate more of the messages, share, share the medicine further, the reaches further.

And what’s interesting to me again, in reflection with my own story, right? My background, I studied broadcast journalism in college, but even before that, I mean, since I was in sixth grade, I was like, I’m going to write books. I’m a writer, I’m a writer. Like the books are in the, in my head still. They’re not out in the world yet, but they will be born just like this podcast.

Right. But what I love about that and, and, and what I think is interesting, and I’m not sure that I’ve consciously made that connection before is the inquiry and questions because I’m like, there are a lot of people in co in the coaching field, whether it’s on more of the business marketing side or the kind of work you do, or more specialized or niched things, it is that inquiry process.

We’re curious. And we ask questions, which is why we’re drawn to writing in storytelling and those pieces too. So it’s, it’s fascinating how those threads. Make good coaches because lots of people want to coach and they’re not all, you know, awesome at it. Bless their hearts. Ha. I said that phrase. But it is the inquiry because what you said is the client already has their own answers.

Our job as a coach is just to ask the questions to hold the mirror up and say, did you hear what you just said here? Did you, did you hear this? Let me, let me, let me circle you back to this. And, and so I, I didn’t quite realize that those, you know, writers or journalists, whether they’re a journalist for a newspaper or not, right, you still are asking questions or doing research and ask yourself questions.

Right? So whether you’re asking a question to someone you’re writing an article about, or a story about, or putting in a book, you’re asking lots of questions. And so that inquiry piece is so important. And so much information comes through those answers, right? 

Theresa: Yes. 

KammieK: That’s how the story unfolds. And that’s what we’re getting at.

When we work with clients is those deeper layers of the story that are clues to behaviors, right? What we behave the way we behave, because these layers in the story. 

Theresa: And I’m sure you’ve experienced it. Kammie. I mean, I did a little mini coaching session with somebody yesterday in that moment. And this happens when I’m organizing just through inquiry and you’ll ask them a question and then the, eyes start to well up and then maybe a tear will trickle down their cheek and they’re like, I did not realize that.

KammieK: Yeah

Theresa: . And it’s like, I need to take a moment. This is a holy moment that, however, one regards holiness to me that is like a sacred space we have just stepped on and it’s I mean, I just get goose pimply talking about, I do a beautiful thing. It’s like, yes. 

KammieK: Yeah. It’s a little mini mini breakthroughs, but it’s like, you’re unlocking.

I always think of it as like, that’s when you it’s like, you can see it almost in your third eye are cosmically. You can see that gear shift and it clicks into place finally. Right. It’s like, oh, that’s why this thing is this thing. And then it’s way more. It’s like, it, it just relieves the pressure. It really, the tension it’s like, it’s like when you’re getting massage.

Right. And they get in and that, that little muscle, little knot that’s in there and it just pops open and it releases, right. Like that’s what those moments are kind of like in coaching. Yeah. 

So, absolutely. 

Theresa: Yeah. And I get to see that when I’m organizing is just really cool. And one of my favorite questions are, tell me about that.

What’s what’s the story here? What’s going on here? I mean, not, I don’t do three questions at one time, but I begin my inquiry. 

KammieK: Yes. Okay. And so, so you started doing these, that was the other thing I was going to say. I knew I had two things and I was like, what was the second thing? Is that’s a shout out again to Yavapai college, but to all community colleges.

So in my history, I’ve worked at a small, smaller now it’s a fairly mid, large mid-sized liberal arts college. I worked at ASU, which is a ginormous behemoth university and now working at Yavapai college. And I mean, obviously I love higher education. I’ve worked in higher education since 2000. But the community college is such a resource and especially where I am and where you were when I met you.

Right in Prescott, Arizona in, in Northern Arizona, which is a little bit more rural. I mean, we’re, we’re hop, skip, and a jump from Phoenix, but. It’s such a resource for people and you are teaching in the community ed program, which wasn’t even a four credit course. Right. And so I think there’s gifts and resources within community colleges that people don’t, I wasn’t even aware of.

Right. And I’ve, again, I’ve worked in education and I worked with transfers and whatnot to community colleges over the years, but I don’t think I even realized until I was within one, how much of a resource and a safe place for people to move on, not just with like courses and curriculum, but like community resources, meaning people like yourself, getting into groups, clubs, organizations, volunteer opportunities.

So there’s just so many gifts. So I guess just a little plug there for all colleges whoever’s listening, you know, it’s a good place. Also too, like if you’re on a budget, right. And with the happened, a lot of people are in interesting situations right now. So if you’re, if people are looking for resources, I guess I just also want to share that a community college is a great place to find amazing expertise like yourself on a budget, right.

 I think sometimes people think, well, I don’t have money to invest in myself or in my personal development or moving through some of those things. And it’s like, there’s one where there’s a will, there’s a way. And a community college is an amazing portal to access beyond, you know, maybe your current situation.

So that’s my little plug for community. 

Theresa: Could not agree with. I think you knew already, we’ve been transitioning, known Scottsdale. We just, where I’m at right now. And I hope to get into the Maricopa community college system. 

KammieK: And that’s an amazing community college system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have wonderful programs.

I know tons of people who’ve gone through various different programs that either led to their bachelor’s or additional, you know, lots of art programming and stuff like that. Fabulous. And it’ll be a cool place for you to get into 

Theresa: I think so I think so. Spread the word. 

KammieK: Yeah. So a little bit of your program that you developed.

Tell me a little bit about how that all came together and then the steps that are a part of it. Let us behind the curtain a bit in your mind, in your organizational genius, mind these different kind of buckets of content to help people get more organized. 

Theresa: And actually I thought I should pull up, I do have the one little cheat sheet.

So, as I mentioned before, I use a kind of a multilevel approach starting with the home, and that can be the home, your garage, your business. And you know, my, my biggest rule is don’t organize. You just need to get rid of it. Yes, yes. Get rid of it. We have, we are suffering from stuff- itis. The storage unit industry is the fastest growing section of real estate.

So you want to get into investments, get storage units. Isn’t that crazy? It’s it’s mind boggling. 

KammieK: And then people don’t even know what’s in the storage unit, much less their basement garage or attics. Right. 

Theresa: Right. They can’t, most people can’t park in their garage. The average cost of a storage unit is $240 a month.

Wow. How many people? And like you, they just keep paying for it. Just keep writing the check or the automatic debit for years. Wow. 

KammieK: And they don’t even know. They probably don’t. It’s not like they’re going to revisit their stuff. Right. Or haven’t inventoried it. 

Theresa: Exactly. And this is what happens. So I’ll mention this, the their storage unit and you can just see this.

Oh, you can just see their energy. Just kind of go. And then they go back. Continue paying the rent on it. Yeah. You know, and our houses have gotten so much bigger since the 1970s. I can’t remember what the statistic is, but our homes have gotten like three times bigger. Absolutely. And we’ve got more stuff right.

KammieK: This stuff is filling. It’s filling that existential void, right. Right here and hurts. Right. I mean, the stuff, the stuff is because we’re not doing the deeper work, so we’re filling it with the stuff, not to mention our society and media and advertising. We will want to go down that road. But you know, our society is set up to encourage entice and elicit us to buy more stuff.

Theresa: Right. Okay. Absolutely. 

Absolutely. And you know what? I just, I did look at my little cheat sheet and I did forget a very, very important key. And this is to all levels of uncluttering. What is your, why? Why. To get uncluttered. And this isn’t just you know, so I can find the remote more easily, more easily, right?

Some of the questions that I have heard from clients or that I’ve seen in my class, they get very pointed. One woman reached out to me not too long ago and said I want to break the genetic hoarding gene in my family. And she shared with me how she had emptied all three storage units. And she says, I’m shaking right now doing this, but her, why was to get free of the familial burden that she said, I think it was three generations of hoarders.

That’s a why it’s huge. So people come over and I feel okay, well maybe that could be a component. I mean, the old shame is like, one lady that I talked to a few weeks ago. She didn’t want to let me under her house chemo to give her a consultation. And she met me at the door and kind of sneaked out of the door and we sat on the porch and I was like, Hey, let’s go take a look.

And you could just see, and it was, it was sad. 

KammieK: Well, think about it. I’m so glad you brought this point up because ancestral trauma is real. It is true. Most people aren’t even consciously aware that that’s a thing, right? I mean, people who are doing their inner work do understand this, but like, let’s think about several generations back.

So my grandparents I’m, I, you and I are close to the same age, if not the same age, like I’m almost 50. So my grandparents grew up in the depression era. They wanted to hold on to everything because they didn’t have, then my parents right. Wanted to buy because as they started to make more money or more income, and my parents were not, I mean, we were middle-class and you know, my dad worked his butt off, nickel and dime at both. My parents worked. Right. And so they were more maybe of the buying, you know, my mom has some of those traits and characteristics where it’s just like, it’s that unconscious, like dopamine hit, right? Like I’m gonna buy this thing and I’m gonna feel better. And it’s like, well, maybe let’s talk about why you’re not feeling so hot in the first place.

So you don’t have to buy the things, you know, to like keep showing up on the doorstep to get that, that rush that hit. And it goes all the way back though. Right? Like if we haven’t looked at where that’s coming from, Then that shame, layers even deeper because people are internalizing it as their own.

Right. It’s just my thing. And I, I don’t know why I’m like this or why I do this. And like you said, don’t want to let people in my home, can’t have family and friends over to enjoy a cup of coffee or tea or a lunch or a dinner. So many layers. So yeah, it is holy work that you’re doing with that. 

Theresa: Yeah, it is. And it’s funny because when you do flip that shame, trigger in someone, and this is something that is so important when I work with people or I coach them, it’s like, you know what? I am not bringing any shame and I encourage others. Don’t shame yourself, loved into wholeness. This is something that needs to be healed.

KammieK: Yes. 

Theresa: That’s not something to condemn or to shame absolutely healing. And the first step is the vulnerability to get it out on the table to open the door and say, Hey, this is my mess. Yeah, because I was looking into more, there’s a story behind that mess. And then of course, what you had mentioned that the inner generational.

KammieK: It goes deep, right? That’s why this isn’t like a quick fix, which our society again, is set up. Like, give me the pill, give me the 30 day workout program. Like, what do I need to, you know, what can I take to make this happen overnight? And it’s like, well, it didn’t, it didn’t, it didn’t arise overnight. So it’s certainly not going to.. 

Theresa: No, unless you inherited a storage unit and that does happen.

You brought it in. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but back to the, the, my, why that’s the first thing that I’ve worked with people, what is your, why I was going to help you feel when you’ve gotten stuff, when you’ve cleared the clutter, what is that going to make possible for you? Like getting rid of it? And then the more emotions they can pull into it, the more they can imagine that wonderful spacious feeling that feeling when you walk into an Airbnb and you don’t live there and you can just, hi, you just feel good because there’s nothing to tidy based and it’s clean, you know?

So I’ll, I’ll throw out suggestions for. Think about how that’s going to feel…

KammieK: and what are some of those words, Theresa, that people share with you? What are some of those words that they say they’ll feel on the other side of the transformation? 

Theresa: Oh gracious, empowered, free, broken a cycle. Their physical health is going to improve.

And this is women mostly, probably because we still do the lion’s share of on the domestic scene. The amount of women that in what we’ll get into this a little bit later, headaches, fibromyalgia, chronic pain. Okay. So cluttered. I can’t get the energy together with the clutter, so my pain levels are worse.

So it even brings a physical healing of physical bomb. When your environment has been uncluttered and you can breathe easier, it literally makes you feel better physically. It’s. Yeah, it’s crazy. 

KammieK: It’s a ripple of absolutely unpeeling. Some layers. Yeah. So the line where you start, and that is where I start.

Theresa: Yeah. And polling the emotions. And then well, let’s go back to the house then your house, your garage. So, you know, I wish I had some patented little formula that was, you know, that I could sell and become a millionaire overnight. That’s not going to happen. I do the same approach as most organizers still.

And we categorize things. Does it need to find a new home? So it needs to go to a different location. I call it the relocate, the donate boxes and other one, this is stuff that is usable , you know, I’m sorry that stain root t-shirt that you want to give to Goodwill? No, don’t, it’s an astonishing amount of that stuff.

And the dumpster hill and the landfills. Now, sometimes you can use rags and towels and old bedding for poundage, for places that will turn it into rags. So, anyway, that’s the donate. My favorite one, I should have mentioned this first is the pitch pile. And I always tell people, you know, I come from a Christian background, so I’m like, it wants to go see Jesus.

So let’s send them all of those receipts that you’ve been hanging on to for the last 30 years. They want to go see Jesus they’ve they’ve lived their lives. They’re running for their reward. 

KammieK: Total side note about receipts. I, I get them, even if I have three of them in my purse, I like tear them up and throw them away. I’m like, why don’t we even still do this? Like, anyway, I understand. 

Theresa: Yeah. I hear you. And I know there was an apps for it. And what not any more, like when I’m guessing, do you want to receive no. 

KammieK: No, I don’t want your extra piece of paper. No, I don’t. I don’t like you go to Walgreens and they’re spitting out the coupons and all the things that takes,

Theresa: I object to this. I’m not going to shop here anymore. 

KammieK: I know. Isn’t it. When we think about, when I think about some of the systems that are set up in our society, I’m like, why do we do this? Why is this set up like this? And how have we not asked. Yeah, innovated something better to do better. Cause it’s all part of the cycle.

Theresa: It truly is so much insanity. So well that’s the pitch pile. Okay. And then the last pile is, think about, and this one, one needs to be careful with it because for some people they want to think about everything and then you don’t get anything done. You know? So things like that might be seasonal items where you’re not sure if you’re going to use it in the winter again, or, you know, so that’s an important if I see somebody getting really anxious about maybe partying with some little chotsky that they bought on a vacation 15 years ago A little bit of a safety valve for them.

If I can see them going home God or an interior, it’s like, you know, we don’t, we don’t have to get rid of that right now. I try to listen to what they’re saying. And, and I have learned, cause I have pissed people off before let’s throw it. I’ll throw it out. All right. I need to wash my energy then I’m like, yeah, let’s throw it out.

Right. Some of my clients they’ll laugh at me. They’re like, you need to throw out something right now. Don’t you it’s like twitching. So they’ll let me throw out up. 

KammieK: Yeah. I don’t know a basketball with a hole on it or an old invitation to a baby shower. Yeah. 

Theresa: Yeah. You’re not kidding. Some of the stuff that I see is it’s keep my game face on, keep a poker face.

It’s like, okay, well, because it has importance on some level, right? Like it’s and then that’s where I’ll tell me about that. Let’s is there another way that we can remember your loved one? Because the sentimental stuff that does always come up and the, you know, the think about box can be used for that.

But what I do with, with clients is like, is there a different way we can memoralize moralized your loved one instead of hanging onto this a broken recliner that you can’t even sit in, right? Or something else where it causes trouble, it makes them sad. They feel sorrow, right? When they look at, well, this was great aunt wellness, you know, and when she died in a car accident and this was her, whatever.

Let’s let’s honor great aunt Wilma for a moment. And then how about we would pass it on to somebody who could use that maybe, or just free yourself from the sadness. Right? 

KammieK: Well, and back to your point about the recline, the broken recliner, if it was great aunt Wilma’s, right. And then they’re not, they’re not looking at it.

It’s like now I have to walk around it and pretend it’s not even here. And it’s taking up space to, you know, to flow. I can’t get from my living room in my kitchen because I got to go around this big old recliner, you know? So it’s like, there’s some, there’s just so much. 

Theresa: And they’re so used to that pattern.

Yeah. For me to come in and go, have you considered getting rid of it and freeing up the forest space? And they’re like, oh my God, you’re a genius. 

KammieK: They’re not even seeing it anymore. Right. You pay me the big box. Yes, yes. 

Theresa: Yeah. But I mean, isn’t that we get habituated to these patterns that. We’re so used to them.

It’s just like these old cow pals and our brain. Yes. We’re in our home where we’re tolerating, you know, like maybe somebody has got, and I’m not kidding you, you know, three, four vacuums. Well, this one doesn’t work for this and the suction thing on this one doesn’t work. And I’m like, oh my God, how about this?

Get rid of all four of them and go get yourself one or even better, get, take one to the vacuum shop, get it fixed. Right. In part with the rest of them. Yes. Yeah. But that’s, that’s what we humans do we like rational or not? 

KammieK: Yes. And so then next, what? What’s next? 

Theresa: So the next one, I talk about head and as you know, we are just way too freaking.

We’re stressed out. We’re suffering from insomnia, according to Bernay brown or brilliant Ted talk. We are the most medicated group of people ever in the history. What’s up with that. Our little heads were so overloaded with decision fatigue, and that is a very real thing. How do we settle our mind down?

Our monkey mind is, I love how the Buddhists call it the monkey mind, because you don’t think the monkey standing around lover. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and I would like to say I’m going to be the first to confess. I, I got the monkey shit show going on in my head more often than not. 

KammieK: Which is why you like to clear other people’s stuff. 

Theresa: It’s like, yes. 

KammieK: Yes. It’s your own monkeys, right? 

Theresa: Exactly. Settled down. Okay. You over there? Yes. Set the banana down. Yeah. So how do we do that? So kind of the same procedure that I do the pitch donate, relocate and think about. So for the head, it’s a little different, what does the pitch look like?

Stop doing it. If you’re doing, if you’re the super volunteer at your church, like I was for many years or your kids’ activities or you’re just doing too much stuff, pick something and stop doing it. This is so unhelpful to people because we were not made to be connected 24 7. And again, I’m as bad as the next one on my phone is next to my pillow.

Cause I listen to stories or meditation at night. But I know a lot of people they’re just constantly so stop doing it. That was a digital distraction. But if there’s activities that you can pitch, right. 

KammieK: Well, and also don’t you think that the, the busy quote unquote is similar to filling with stuff, right?

We’re keeping ourselves busy. Cause we don’t want to hear the thoughts that are going to trigger the emotions that we’re not wanting to feel, which is the same thing as buying more of the stuff. Right. They’re they’re, they’re tied to absolutely. 

Theresa: Well, and I’m going to point out something to where I just say yay to people because yeah.

That when those behaviors are numbing and distracting and I think, you know, you, you are so brilliant. You are a bad ass because you have figured out a pattern to mitigate the pain. Yes. That you’re trying to keep at bay now. That’s helpful up to a certain extent to get you through that childhood or whatever it is not helpful, especially by the time you get older.

Now you do have chronic health issues knocking at your door. And now you are, you are a shopping addict and I’ve seen that too. It’s very sad. It’s very much an addictive cycle, but at the beginning, it’s like, you know, good on you. You figured out something to get you through that time, but now it’s time to honor yourself your true self and reevaluate how you’re doing.

KammieK: Yes. And I want to share, you know, full disclosure, I’m 100% guilty of all of that. And I don’t want to say guilty cause it’s not a guilt thing. I mean, again, I even as far back as high school, I had you know, gastrointestinal issues. I remember going to the doctor when I was like 15 years old and he was like, you know, the majority of this is stress related.

You know, what all are you involved in? I was like, well, let’s see, I’m an editor on the newspaper. I’m an editor on the yearbook. I’m a captain on the dance team. I’m on the prom committee, I’m on the homecoming committee. You know, I have a boyfriend, I work a part-time job. I’m, you know, a decent student. And he was like, yeah, you’re overextending yourself.

And I was like, it’s all good. I got it handled. You know? And it just kept snowballing college was the same after college, you know, in a lot of my early jobs and whatnot. And that manifested up to, you know, you know, in 2016 I was violently ill from 2016 to 2018. For two years, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong.

I was finally diagnosed with Crohn’s and part of why I live in Prescott and work at YC was part of the healing process because I had to undo parts in my life. I was just, you know, I loved my job at ASU, but it was very stressful. It was a stressful environment. It was kind of a startup type environment that I was in.

And there was just a lot of layers going on that I wasn’t even aware of as well as the Phoenix environment. Like I didn’t even really, I loved living in Phoenix. I was part of, you know, the downtown scene and community before it got so built up and we were having events and, you know, community dinners and things like that.

And then, you know, then Phoenix blew up and it happened. Right. And yeah, and then it was just like, just to go to the grocery store is stressful. You know, it’s like, we’re all these cars and I got to the traffic and park and lots of people. And so I was just like, I didn’t even realize until, you know, my health completely went haywire and sideways.

And then I was like, oh my God. And my intuition, once I got quiet, right. What two years of being quiet in your bed? You’ll start to hear your intuition come through. Right. Or God or source or whatever. And I was like, oh, I did all, I created all of this, you know? So they’re also taking responsibility and an ownership of like my part in all of this.

Theresa: Oh yeah. 

KammieK: Right. Like it’s a big aha. Like, oh, I designed this, like, this didn’t just happen. I couldn’t get it. All of this. And so do we dismantle. All of this. So yeah, it goes so deep and there’s so many layers and it’s not conscious until it is right. I sat on the toilet for two years, the toilet and my bed is where I’ve lived for two years.

Theresa: Right. Yeah, no, I hear, ya know, and I still, I still get that thinking in me where I’m like, okay, then I need to do this and do that. 

KammieK: Yes. Well, and what you said to, to the fibromyalgia, the migraines that headaches, the exhaustion, like all of those symptoms, that’s all. That’s, that’s all of that.

Theresa: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And we’ll get into that more with the health topic. I love that you’ve jumped into that with the head clutter. So stop doing some stuff. Let it go. Yeah. What about the donate? What does the donate thing look like, I mean, well, obviously can’t donate, but you certainly can delegate something. Somebody else do it.

Can you outsource it? I mean, there’s all sorts of, if you’ve got a small business, you don’t have to do everything. You can outsource some of that. Can you shift it off your plate to somebody else? How about they start picking up more of the work? So that would be the donate the relocate box. How do you organize the head clutter and how do you, what do you mean by relocate?

You know, there’s just different seasons in life. So like, I think I shared with the YC call my desire to learn Spanish, doing that when I was homeschooling my kids and I was busy with so many other things. Not the best time, but now kids are all grown. I’ve got time. So it’s not a no to the activity. It’s not a no to the desire.

It’s just a different season. So that’s the other thing that you can do. And then finally, the, the thing about box for the head, you know, we get stuck with analysis, paralysis, decision overload. So what I like to do is put a date on the calendar and set a timeline for it. So now, if you’re talking about switching brands of toilet paper, you know, you really don’t need to get that.

A lot of toilet talk prompted that, talking about moving across the country, then yeah. You might want to set, you know, six weeks. To consider the information and, and that’s part of the problem. We do get information overload. So you really need to cure rate. Where are you going to get your information from and stick to that?

Because I would imagine you do this. I start learning about something I’m like, I’ll pull from 50,000 resources until I’m like ma you know, overload. So curing, where are you going to get your information from, put a date on the calendar. This is what I’m going to make the decision. And then do not second guess we are so good at second guessing ourselves.

And that’s where people end up getting stuck. 

KammieK: Well, and I want, I wanted to jump in with the, depending on where you are on the financial spectrum, right? Everyone’s budget is very different. Everyone’s lifestyle is very different. We’re all in different places on our journey. It really does oftentimes require bringing in help and that doesn’t have to be hiring a coach or hiring a business you know, analyst or someone to come in and assist.

You know, I have friends, fortunately that are really good. You know, I have resources like you, and sometimes it’s just like, can we get on the phone for two hours and map this out? Like, let’s map it out the timeline. And then, and then I have one friend Karen, she’s amazing. And she’s like, okay, what’s the date?

Put this on the calendar. What’s the date we’re going to have this done. And you have to sometimes have someone else help you have that dashboard overview because we can’t see through our own stuff and like exactly what you said with the analysis paralysis stuff. It’s like, we’ll second. Guess we’ll him and haw.

It seems very overwhelming. And sometimes it just takes someone else to hold your hand a little bit and help talk you through it. Like they don’t have your answers, but there’s someone to bounce it off of and be like, does this make sense? Am I over analyzing or overthinking? And you know, it’s not like you need someone else’s permission, but it can be helpful to have someone else there to sort of like just code. Walk through it together.

Theresa: I totally get it. Yes. Because I’m creative and I’m like, oh, I’m going to write a book and I’m going to do this, make another list. I love the check the box feature in Trello. You know, I love it all right. 

KammieK: Yeah. So I am encouraging people to, to get a lifeline call a friend, whoever you need to, if you, if you have budget for it, great.

Hire a professional. If you don’t get your bestie on the phone and be like, absolutely dive into this. 

Theresa: Absolutely. Yes. Well, that was the head. So now this is the good stuff. And oh, just, I don’t know if I told you this or not, but I am in a spiritual director program. I’m learning to be a spiritual director because this is the other component to me.

It was like a natural segue. When we’re talking about the heart, however, somebody may frame it. You know, I believe we are spiritual beings having a human existence. So if we are, if we want to talk in more broad terms of the heart, you know, the existential. We’ve got a lot of clutter in our hearts always got so much clutter.

We’ve got unresolved trauma. We’ve got childhood wounds. We have got stressors from life 2020. What a nightmare we have in it. And we’re not processing it because non-American you just, you just put on your happy face and you keep going and find more stuff, buy more stuff, rent a storage unit, right. Go to your favorite addiction.

Right. I’m not saying that with any malice or now this is just, it’s an indication of heart clutter. Yes. So how do you declutter, how do you unclutter your heart? Well, the pitch box, let’s talk about the pitch. Ditch the toxic relationships. Ditch, the job, you know, like you talked about leaving ASU because it was a pressure cooker environment.

You know, if you’ve got a toxic relative. That you’re obligated to be with set boundaries around it. I’ve got some good friends and they know that when her sister comes she’s not going to be there more than two days. Cause the husband’s like, I’m going to leave if she’s here longer. So put boundaries around it.

I know you can’t ditch all toxic relationships, you know, maybe you’re at a job and you can’t leave it right now for the love of God, put a timeline on it and make some decisions to do something or create some boundaries that you can mitigate the toxicity. And I mean, we all know we’ve all got them.

Every single one of us have got the toxic relationships. 

KammieK: And I, I mean, again, this is another one of those like little, like if we were putting little pins in this conversation, right, this is definitely another one of those where that work can take decades. So by no means by sharing this process, right, are we saying that this is just a 1, 2, 3 fits into this and just do the thing, right?

Like this can take decades. And I personally, you know, your coming in with this amazing work too. And I’ll talk about this more on the end, or do a separate little outro with it, but for inner space camp, which is an eight week program that I’m going to facilitate in June and July, and the first module of the camp is crystallize, which has crystallized your core values.

And that is what helped change. It was a game changer for me. I was in an, on again, off again, 12 year toxic, I call it almost like a non-relationship because it wasn’t actually, it was just crazy. Right. I was in a toxic work environment. I had some toxic behaviors that I was, you know, patterns that I kept repeating and cycles that I was in.

It, it took over, I mean, I’m still obviously a work in progress we always are. Right. But. It takes a lot of, self-reflection working with a coach, working with friends, working with a therapist, a minister, a pastor, a spiritual director, you know, there’s a lot of layers to it and there’s so many resources out there.

And that’s why I was drawn to do this podcast, was to start presenting these resources to people who are interested in doing those, those deeper, that deeper work and peeling back those deeper layers. Yes, everything you’re saying this. So this whole conversation is so incredible because it impacts so many areas of our lives and those relationships and those boundaries.

I mean, there’s tons of books on boundary work and yes, because those, those, again, everything you’re talking about, our energy drains, these things that drain our energy and don’t allow us to have as much energy to put forth into the creative projects. The people we love the work we want to do the business we want to create, you know, whatever that is for each individual person.

Right. We don’t have the energy or bandwidth because it’s all this other ish. 

Theresa: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. 

And you can’t understand this really is the work of a lifetime. Yes. I mean, I was kind of whingeing to my, my therapist I haven’t seen you a long time and she kind of laughs about that.

My spiritual director also too, because I’m like, you know, what’s my problem. And they’re like Teresa, every time I go to a continuing ed workshop, everybody is still seeing a therapist. And I mean, if you can do that, great or listening ear from a friend can be helpful because of the background I’ve had in trauma.

Therapy has been very helpful to me, but it’s a slow process. It’s, you know, it’s interesting when I think, you know, all the things that nature teaches us, you know, we are able to actually see as just a small spectrum of all the whole spectrum and with hearing, we only can listen within this range.

Right? And it’s so often this journey that we’re doing as we are looking at heart clutter, we’re limited, our perspective is so limited on what we can see. So just becoming aware of things as. That’s a huge win and that’s part of the necessary process, right? So, but anyway, that’s the heart clutter. What do I talk about when it’s donating?

How do you donate heart clutter? Well, this is back to the work. I’m a really big fan of journaling. Forgiveness is the power tool now, and I’m not talking about you know, your, your dad beat the shit out of you every day for the first 10 years of your I’m not saying, oh, I forgive him and you move on.

That’s a process that needs to be done and it needs to be honored. And if some of those wounds do need a therapist to help you. Cause I do not want to sugar coat this about to my Christian background. You know, it was like, oh, well you just forgive and no, you don’t just forgive. It’s a process. And there needs to be, if somebody.

Abusing you emotionally or whatever you don’t just, oh, I forgive you and move on. You’ve got a process to work through, but it is this power, power tool. And it’s something that all the great spiritual teachers teach about forgiveness. But I, again, I just want to put a caution there that forgiveness is not a one-time event.

It’s, it’s something that you move forward through and hand. Yes. Journaling is a great way of doing this. I’m a huge fan of journaling. 

KammieK: I would think gotta write it down and get it out of our head. Right? Whether that’s the grocery list or my forgiving person. XYZ. You know what we have, we have to read down, get it out here.

Cause that’s that clutter in your head. You, you know, that’s what we’re talking about. And any coaching program is, is all, you know, there’s always journaling baked into it and it’s because all that is noise in our head and we have to get it out, get it out, get it out, get it out. Yeah. 

Theresa: Well, and, and I want to say a plug about this too.

Doesn’t look like forgiveness, but when you have been hurt and traumatized love all that out, process it, if you want a journal. And I mean, some of my journal pages, I tear them up when I’m done, because it’s like, I don’t want anybody to see and then I’ll go out and burn it. 

KammieK: Burn it, rip it up, put it in the toilet, whatever.

Theresa: I’m done with this, I honor it.

I had a lot of rage over the situation. I’m going to give it a voice and then I’m going to release it and I’m going to practice. I’m going to choose forgiveness. So, the next thing, how do you relocate heart clutter? Well, we kind of touched upon that already. Boundaries. You’ve got to have boundaries boundaries for you.

You know, it’s so funny. And especially when, when you’re you care about people you’ll end up taking out other people’s crap. That accumulates that’s going to cost you. That’s going to what you beautifully said earlier Kammie. That’s going to take from your energy to do the work that you’re put on this earth to do.

You don’t have the energy for that. If you’re dealing with other people’s stuff.

KammieK: It also manifests as those illnesses, like we talked about your body physically cannot take all of that stuff. I mean, I, that is part of what I went through too. It was putting everyone before myself, my coworkers, my friends, my family, my community.

And I wasn’t putting myself first. And I thought I was, I thought I was, I was like you know, I’m taking care of all the things, but I wasn’t taking care of me. 

Theresa: Yeah. And the body’s like, uh excuse me. 

KammieK: And just a plug for Gaybor Matise work. I don’t know if you’ve, I mean, yes, yes. His is the body keeping score, right? Or is the body says, no. 

Theresa: That’s a Bessel Boncolt. 

KammieK: Yes. The body says no. 

Theresa: The body says no is GABA or Mati. And in the realm of hungry ghosts, which is dealing with addictions. Well, that’s going to be a great segue for where we’re going next. But first I need to touch on the, think about a component of the clutter clearing for the heart daily practices.

In addition to journaling, meditation, prayer deep breathing, whatever there’s apps out there. I don’t care if you’re religious or not. This is science-based stuff. I’m talking about by slowing your breathing down, you know, use the calmly app, use the calm app use. I mean, look at the Google play store.

You will find apps there. You know, I tell clients something as easy as putting your hand over your heart. Yes. Taking four deep breaths will drop your pulse. It’s going to drop your blood pressure. This is really powerful medicine. I think it’s so cool that we’re wired with these mechanisms for our healing.

We, our bodies are made to heal. So by using some form of a daily practice meditation, I have a hard time. You’re not going to get me in the Lotus position for more than 30 seconds, you know, because I’m like, so what do I do? Well, I, I go find a lab. And I walk, elaborate slowly. I go on a mindful walk and maybe I’ll pause and study a flower.

So you can find a meditation that works for you, but I encourage people. It’s so important to have some sort of a practice. 

KammieK: Yeah. And I, I just to jump in with the morning practice stuff, you know, especially in the like, business coaching world and, and building a business, you know, there’s a lot of hype around morning practices and that’s another area you don’t want to shame people, right?

Like for me, it doesn’t have to be the same thing every day because I, I I’m artistic and creative and I need. I’ve committed to 30 minutes of movement every day. It doesn’t have to be the same thing. It can be yoga one day. I’m right now I’m into this bar three, you know, I paid for a yearly membership. It wasn’t that expensive.

I love it and I’m moving my body, but some days it’s just me stretching on the floor on the right. My dog comes, she stretches with me right now. It’s spring and we’re having the windows open and I love, like you said, meditation, right? I’m the same way. I can’t just sit. I’m not there. And I may never be there, but for me right now, I’m loving, hearing the birds.

And so I took a deep breathing meditation. I listened to those birds and it’s like, oh my God, spring is happening. You know, like it just gets you out of the monkey mind, like you said, it sure is still, all the things are still happening. The world is still spinning. Right? Crazy chaotic. And you know, I don’t watch the news because I’m not letting any of that stuff into my mind.

That’s a whole nother time energy suck. Right. But it’s like tuning into the birds, moving my body for 30 minutes. Sometimes I journal, I try to do a daily gratitude in the morning where I type it in my phone. And then I share it with a gratitude buddy. I don’t do it every single day in my mind. I do, but I don’t write it down every single day.

I try to, and I committed to it for several months, you know, from like January to March, I was really good about it. So it can look like different things, but it’s committing to giving yourself some time, first thing in the morning before you give that time to other people. I think that’s the important thing to discern there for people it’s like, because you’re committing to yourself first.

Right. And it is huge and it is a gift and it opens all of these other things, but it’s making that commitment to you first thing in the morning and your connection to whatever source power, you know, absolutely. 

Theresa: You know, one of my favorite meditation teacher, mindfulness, Jon Kabat Zinn is brilliant. And, you know, he talks about, it’s just about paying attention.

You can turn your dishwashing into a meditation. 

KammieK: Yes. Pay attention, cooking, chopping veggies. Right. Like I fell in love with cooking over COVID and I did not like to cook before at all. Very cool.

Theresa: And be present in the moment. Yeah. It’s it’s huge. So yeah. So don’t people don’t get scared off when I say meditation, because we need to take the scariness out of that.

Yes. It’s really nothing more. Being present being present in the moment. We’re always, our little monkey minds are always, we’re worried about tomorrow. We’re regretting the past, right. I’m here right now, right here all as well. I can breathe and life’s good. Move on. Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve already talked about this a little bit, and this is where I get really passionate a little bit about my story.

Developed fibromyalgia when I was 40 years old. And after a years of just, if it had a ligament or a tendon or a joint, it had received PT and it was just getting so ridiculously hard to just function. Got a fibromyalgia diagnosis. I think I was about 40 at that time. And I was so discouraged because my exercise, I’ve always been very active physically.

And what I could do exercise wise kept shrinking. And, you know, even going for a walk, it’s like, okay, I need to do an ice massage on my calf. It was just orthotics. And then I read a book and actually need to give it a little back in my thirties. I read this book, but it’s so pissed me off and offended me.

I threw it across the room. The book was called healing back pain by Dr. John Sarno, a medical doctor from rescue university. 

And he worked with a lot of patients and back pain is just ridiculously… it’s unrelenting. You know, it’s debilitating if, well it is. And what they use to treat, it should be outlawed because we’re talking back surgeries, we’re talking single digits.

Healing and pain relief. Yeah, it’s just, I mean, we wouldn’t get on an airplane if their safety record was what it looks like the back surgeons. Right. But anyway, John, Dr. Sarno was like, what’s going on with this? Why can’t we get to the bottom of the back pain and really help people. And he began to note the certain characteristics of the people that were coming in.

Number one, these were really nice people. They were nice people. They were hardworking. They were honest, they were sincere. They tried to help other people. So that was one characteristic. The next one, they were under a lot of stress. So, you know, they’re raising kids, maybe they’re in the sandwich generation, they’re taking care of their parents.

So they’ve got that going on. So we’ve got the people-pleasing behavior, we’ve got the current stressors and then the other one is a history of a suppressed what’s going on in your subconscious and Dr. Sarno and the shocks people. We’re pressed, suppressed and repressed emotions. 

KammieK: Yes. 

Theresa: One being raged and people are like, oh, I’m not an angry person. 

Yes. Because what’s happening because you are such a nice person. Yes. And because anger is, anger is not an acceptable emotion and because we’re nice, we swallow it. You know, the people that developed swallowing issues swallowing their anger. But, but here’s the thing.

This doesn’t mean you’re bad or you’re evil or you’re anything it’s just, you’re human. Yes. It’s part, there’s this little thing in you, your ego in your super ego, that is like a toddler that needs an nap now. Yes. You need to recognize it. And so what Dr. Sarno did his approach to healing back pain was to take these three components and then to teach this to the people, give them some inner work.

He did some seminars, they were just absolutely brilliant on how do you know the main thing recognizing that there’s a, well, actually he called it getting ahead of myself, Kammie, forgive me. He’s he expanded it more to include things like gastric, esophageal reflux disease, carpal tunnel syndrome, plantar fasciitis.

And he called it tension myositis syndrome. And if you remember it a little Latin in there, you got tense muscles. Yes. And what’s happening, your body because these unacceptable emotions are there. You’re like a new mom who brings the baby home and it’s unacceptable to feel a, to acknowledge the rage they’re feeling because they’ve been bumped off the throne.

Now there’s little screaming, human that you brought home. You’re no longer, people aren’t asking about you. So instead of recognizing that she develops back pain, of course, it’s because of holding the baby and I’m like, Hmm, no there’s stuff going on emotionally there. And, and again, and it’s all fine. It’s all good.

It’s just part of the human experience. And so the first thing that Dr. Sarno teaches people is to recognize, and this is after medical tests have been rolled out. I mean, if you’re not growing a tumor, you’ve got an infection going on. If it comes back as a syndrome, anything was syndrome in it, highly suspect for having an emotional rut.

Yes. So Dr. Sarno began working with patients from this basis, I guess. People were getting healed, left and right. Yes. I’m talking, getting out of wheelchairs. I’m talking about getting their life back. It was so powerful. So read that book back in my thirties, it pissed me off it threw it across the room because I had been in a car accident.

You know, I had a broken vertebrae and that was what everybody was telling me that it was from this car accident. When I got the fibromyalgia diagnosis, I knew that I needed to listen because I even vacuuming was causing problems for me. So I began to look at Dr. Sarno’s work and another book by Steve Hosanna called the great pain deception, excellent book.

I began to read them and I began to see myself on every page. My desire to please people, my desire. Under a lot of stress, you know, we’ve had our own business most of our years and that’s, that can be really stressful. The parenting, my chaotic childhood had a buttload of trauma. And we’ve learned more about that with the adverse childhood experiences study, which I encourage people to look that up if you’re dealing with well, I’ll get, I’ll give you the thumbnail on it of morbidly obese women at Kaiser Permanente in California.

And they put them all on a diet. They all lost weight, and then they gained it back. And another researcher one or more with team, I’m not sure who was doing it. They got curious about it and was like, well, what is with these women that they can’t keep the weight off. So they got curious. There’s that curious word again?

Asking questions. What’s going on here. And they discovered that these women had 10 different questions from different areas, questions like have you been sexually assaulted? Was there food scarcity in your home? Do you have a loved one in prison? And they looked at these different areas and the higher, the ACE score, the higher the predictor.

And I love it because it fits totally in with what Dr. Sarno was teaching. He was a genius. He was an absolute genius. So this study has come out. And when you’re seeing people that have got these health issues or morbid obesity and doctors need to be aware that there’s a root for there. It’s not because they’re not disciplined or because they’re lazy or because they eat too much.

I mean, just these unkind and I’ve done it too. I’ve struggled with my own weight. So I get even my own internal dialogue of just nastiness, instead of saying, what is this. The root of this, and this is where I come back to. It’s a clutter problem. Yes. You’ve got too much stress on process. Yes.

Unprocessed stuff. And the body is going to check the volume every time. 

But what we ended up doing and because we have industrialized, the can’t even call it healthcare, right. Medical complex, and have turned it into a for-profit formula. Of course, they’re going to keep you going for tests. And of course you can get screened.

Of course, you know, they talk about all of your pre-diabetic and I’m like… 

KammieK: yeah, I called the, I called my experience with it, the medical mystery tour. Right. Because exactly there were no, there were no answers and it’s, and everyone, you know, I know several other women who are in the middle of that.

Cause a lot of times it does show up as the gastro stuff. So then people start to ask me questions and I’m like you’re at the beginning phase. And we still think the doctors have the answers. Oh my God. Absolutely. They don’t. And then, and that’s not to say we shouldn’t work with them and get those tests and do, and do that process through that process and all of our inner work and our inner exploration and our inner inquiry and all of the things we’ve talked about today, it’s all tied together.

Theresa: Yes, absolutely. And, and I cannot emphasize that enough. Yes rule out anything physical going on. Yeah. If you’re going back to your doctor appointment and they’re like, oh, there’s nothing going wrong. It must just be whatever I’m like. Yeah. That’s mind body. Then that is tension myositis syndrome. Yes. Yes. And you need to approach us, but we’re so compartmentalized.

I mean, you got something wrong with your finger. You go to the finger doctor. It’s so ridiculous. And nobody’s tying this together and I don’t know about you, but I did have one doctor was very intuitive and very, an amazing man. I miss him still he’s my doctor is Montana. Most doctors. Yeah. They’re not going to ask about your childhood.

KammieK: Well, and they don’t have time. The system’s not designed for them to. 

Theresa: Exactly. The insurance is driving. Oh, you’ve got exactly 7.5 minutes with this person cranking them out, you know? So that’s a whole other discussion. 

KammieK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. And I want to be mindful of our time. So we have about, I don’t know, 10 or 15 more minutes.

So I don’t know how far into your process you are.

Theresa: Oh, that’s it. We got there. That’s the deal with your clutter. If you’ve got health issues, look at what type of clutter might be driving your health issues. 

KammieK: And I love that. Oh, there’s some there’s so much here, right? Like I love, I’m excited to pull you into the interspace camp experience because this layer of it, you know, putting the crystallize and our core values first, and you know, this whole thing is a process.

It’s not a one size fits all back to what you were saying about the emotions and the anger, specifically targeting back pain and, or fibromyalgia the stomach and all the gut stuff is also tied in with that. And same back to the good girl, perfectionist, overachiever, anger, definitely something I did not want to express.

I did not feel safe expressing my anger because you’re not supposed to be angry. You know, I’ve had people through the years call me obnoxiously optimistic and I’m sure. There are some people who maybe don’t know me and the, the full experience that I’ve been going through in the last, you know, handful of years would save in toxic positivity right now.

I understand and appreciate that. Life is a full spectrum sport. You have to look at our anger. We have to look at our rage, especially women, as we get to a certain age and our hormones start shifting that rage that will rage monster. The little dragon on our shoulder, isn’t going away. It’s just, it’s just amplifying.

Right? Like, you know, and it shows up in the silliest things like in the car or at the grocery store.

Theresa: I was just going to say that, you know, when you’re a nice person and they turn into this, you know, and they told me lose their shit. 

KammieK: Right. Like I do this for me, what happens in it? And I know it’s, hormone-related because I can see the sink in the month and the timing.

Right. I start to get clumsy and drop stuff. I still don’t know medically how that ties together, but it’s a thing, right? It’s a real thing. It’s like, I’ll draw, I’ll fill my water glass and then drop it on the floor. And there’s a water all over it. Right. And it’s like, it’s a waterline, it’s water. It’s not going to stay in anything.

It’s like hurting anything it’s going to dry up. Right. But then you’re like, I dropped this. It’s like, why am I freaking out about driving tomorrow? But then it’s like, I get clumsy and I start dropping stuff or I’ll trip over stuff. And I’m like, I still don’t know what that is. That causes that. But it’s a thing.

And then, so it’s those little tiny things, right? Or it’s like your computer, you go to launch it and then it crashes and you got to reboot. Of course, it’s two seconds before you’re supposed to be on the zoom call. And he was like, you can only, it’s like the little things for me that want to set me over the edge.

It’s not like, it’s not like these, these big things, chaotic events I can handle, but these little tiny micro things. Oh my God, you would think the world was melting down. 

Theresa: Oh, I know. Yeah, no. It’s like a toddler needing a nap. I mean, we do the same damn things. Or the other thing I was telling a lady this the other day, anytime you find yourself getting triggered by somebody’s behavior saying whatever it’s like, hi. Yeah, you got the same thing in you, honey. 

KammieK: Turn that, turn that mirror right around. 

Theresa: And then I said, in the more vehement you are about a high, I would never do that. I would never, it’s like, yeah. Yeah. You just touched upon your shadow and, and again…

KammieK: I did an episode on shadow work. So yes, there is so much of that to do.

Theresa: It’s not anything to shame now. It’s something that needs to be healed and loved. And I know that sounds very Pollyannish, but the more I do this work and the more I see people that do get free, it’s love and self compassion that helps people. Clutter their closet and clutter, their head, their heart, and heal physical.

KammieK: And quite honestly, it’s something that we didn’t mention or use the phrase inner child work. Right. But the shadow work and the inner child work and everything that you’re talking about in the work that you do is, I mean, if you imagine when, when, when you said. Opens the door and wants to sneak out and not let you see the things it’s that inner child insomnia that is terrified that you’re going to judge or look or shame or, you know, all of the things.

Right. And so it needed that inner child within us that just wants to be loved or held or all the things that we each individually didn’t get or got too much of or whatever, whatever that story in history is the intergenerational stuff that we talked about. So there’s so many layers to all of it. And I just I’m, I’m so honored that you’re in my pool of resources to help expose and share to other people that if they need to look at some of these things that you’re a resource that they can go to.

And so. On your website. Do you have a newsletter that you offer? How can people stay in touch connected with you? I know you’re still building things. 

Theresa: Oh my, yeah. Yes. I send out a very occasional newsletter. They can reach out to me. I’ve got a Facebook group Unclutter your life with the zany Sage. I have a newspaper column and Prescott e-news.

If any of the listeners are, I mean, look at that from anywhere. You know, reach out to me via email. I send out very occasional email newsletters. 

KammieK: And so you do one-on-one and group programs. Yes? 

Theresa: I’m going to start the group program again. But I do one-on-one coaching. I still do organizing work. I’m working in the Scottsdale area.

I’m going to be going up to Prescott and doing some work later this month. So somebody is in Prescott. We’ll make that happen primarily Arizona based yeah.

KammieK: Zoom kind of calls or zoom?

Theresa: You know, I’ve tried to do that, especially during COVID to do virtual organizing, you know what, it’s a different, it’s a different kettle of fish and it’s like the old do this and I’ll do that.

And then it’s like, no, I, I need to fix one thing and focus on that. So the book. I do have a book it’s on Amazon. Yeah. I’m cloudy or bad-ass organizing. I’m probably going to work on my next book. I’m toying with the title of deal with your shit. 

KammieK: Amen. 

Theresa: Yeah. Yes. Obviously. What are we talking about here? So. 

KammieK: Yes. So we will put all of these links in the show notes. I’ll make sure to get all the links from you. We, you and I discussed a lot of books, so I want to make sure you and I touch base and follow up on all that. And I’ll put all of those links and resources in the show notes, because I think it’s important just to share, you know, we never know where this conversation sparks, barks the healing to begin in other people, right?

They may pick up one of the books. They may go to YouTube. I know all of these and get more Montay has hundreds of videos on YouTube with pieces and parts of different seminars done. So all of these people are out there. And if this can be a catalyst, you know, to pull that bandaid off for someone to start.

Diving in and the show is called the inner space, you know, Cosmics interspace podcasts, because it’s that inner work. It’s our inner space that we have to look at first. We, we always want to look outside of ourselves, but really it’s inside of us and do that inquiry work and ask those questions, get curious so that we can just live more, more holistically and, and honor the full spectrum of our emotions and our experiences.

And then there is no shame in any of it. Oh, look at us. We just put a bow on it. 

Theresa: Been to church today. 

KammieK: We even start recording more of these on Sunday. There’s a little extra X with its coming through. Right. 

Theresa: Oprah has the same idea. 

KammieK: It’s our cosmics interspace T right. We’re getting the medicine, we’re getting the medicine it’s coming through and I am so I so appreciate you and who you are and what you bring to the world.

And I’m excited to share you here on the podcast. I’m excited to share you in inner space camp, and I’ll put a little extra on the end after you and I are on. So we’ll make sure to let people know when you’re coming to play with us in June and July. 

Theresa: Yeah. Thank you so much, Kammie. It’s always a delight to visit with you.

KammieK: Same here. I love that you were here and I’ll be talking to you soon. That sounds awesome. All right. Thanks Theresa. 

Theresa: Have a wonderful rest of the day. 

KammieK: Thank you so much for sharing your time and space with me today. And for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode of the cosmic Innerspace podcast, please leave a review on apple podcasts or share this episode with a friend. Shout out to our amazing sound editor and producer Xtrordinair Brendan Shanahan, the Cosmic Interspace podcast is proudly produced by the podcast pro shop at

I’d love to stay connected with you. I’m at KammieK.Com on Instagram and Facebook. And I share a lot more cosmics goodness on Instagram stories. And of course we can always stay connected via the cosmics interspace mothership over on the blog, where you can find ways to work with me, stay tuned for new art and interspace support in the KK shop. And subscribe to the cosmics e-news to stay updated for future programs and on demand course drops. Okay, friend, until next time I’m sending you Stardust and so much love.

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